I have had the pleasure of including in my podcast conversations over the past 5 years, a significant number of outstanding economists who have carried out important work that is relevant for environmental, energy, and resource policy (see the list at the end of this blog post).
My most recent podcast episode is no exception, because I was joined by Professor Matthew Kahn, Provost Professor of Economics at the University of Southern California (USC), and one of the world’s leading authorities on the intersection of urban economics and climate change. Our conversation is featured in the latest episode of my podcast series, “Environmental Insights: Discussions on Policy and Practice from the Harvard Environmental Economics Program.” Please listen to our full conversation here.
Matt Kahn, whose academic career has included stops at Columbia, Tufts, and UCLA, before he landed at USC, was drawn into urban economics at a young age.
“I was thinking some deep thoughts of what is the good life, and that at least for me and for many others, it’s not just how much money you make, of what is quality of life,” he remarks. “And this has been relevant for my China [research] also – of the importance of raising happy, healthy children, good mental health, feeling strong, and the fundamental role of clean air and clean water in having a great day. And so, this commonsense observation has actually been the bedrock of much of my research.”
Kahn spent several years working with Mary Nichols, the legendary Chair of the California Air Resources Board, who was instrumental in piloting new initiatives designed to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. (Mary was my guest in a previous podcast, which you can listen to here.)
Matt Kahn says, “California often gets mocked in the Wall Street Journal for piloting policies, but I’ve argued that I’m proud that California has enacted things such as the cap-and-trade [policy] because this offers valuable guinea pig lessons that Texas and other states can adopt if they prove to be cost effective. It’s been exciting to be part of California’s laboratory of the democracy. I want to believe that economists have played an important role in designing state policy, but that’s open to debate.”
Although the concept of climate adaptation is sometimes controversial, Kahn maintains that it is an essential part of an effective climate policy that is not detrimental to economic growth.
“The reason that I started to work on climate change adaptation and city adaptation by firms and workers was my pessimism that global greenhouse gas emissions can flatten. I have worried that we need, and the rest of the world needs economic development. And I’ve worried that the carbon intensity of our economy won’t decline sharp enough. And so, I have worried that global greenhouse gas emissions will continue to rise. And I love it that we’re bending that curve, but this is the reason that I pivoted to urban climate change adaptation,” he says.
Matt Kahn expresses his belief that climate adaptation is progressing so quickly that the need for geoengineering climate solutions like Carbon Dioxide Removal (CDR) and Solar Radiation Management (SRM) may become less necessary.
“Excellent scholars like David Keith at the University of Chicago have used estimates of how many people might die from future heat waves to justify the benefits of geoengineering,” Matt Kahn remarks. (You can listen to my previous podcast conversation with David Keith here.) Matt continues, “I, being a tough guy, have said because of adaptation progress, fewer people will face mortality risks from the heat, and so, these business-as-usual estimates overstate the benefits of geoengineering because they understate the upcoming adaptation.”
Matt Kahn also talks about his interest in climate risk report cards, which use AI and big data to predict climate risks such as fires, floods, heat, hurricanes, and tornadoes.
“With these forecasts, these become known unknowns and begin to inform insurance decisions, mortgage underwriting decisions, hopefully zoning decisions… If we can identify geographic areas that face less heat and flood risk, I want to live in a world where we upzone in those areas and allow for taller buildings,” he says. “If we upzone in relatively safer places in terms of risks and heat, that would allow more people and more middle-class people to live in relatively safer places. So, it’s this combination of better risk modeling and public policy that allows more people to live in relatively safer, low carbon areas.”
For this and much, much more, I encourage you to listen to this 74th episode of the Environmental Insights series, with future episodes scheduled to drop each month. You can find a transcript of our conversation at the website of the Harvard Environmental Economics Program. Previous episodes have featured conversations with:
- Gina McCarthy, former Administrator of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
- Nick Stern of the London School of Economics discussing his career, British politics, and efforts to combat climate change
- Andrei Marcu, founder and executive director of the European Roundtable on Climate Change and Sustainable Transition
- Paul Watkinson, Chair of the Subsidiary Body for Scientific and Technological Advice (SBSTA) within the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change
- Jos Delbeke, professor at the European University Institute in Florence and at the KU Leuven in Belgium, and formerly Director-General of the European Commission’s DG Climate Action
- David Keith, professor at Harvard and a leading authority on geoengineering
- Joe Aldy, professor of the practice of public policy at Harvard Kennedy School, with considerable experience working on climate change policy issues in the U.S. government
- Scott Barrett, professor of natural resource economics at Columbia University, and an authority on infectious disease policy
- Rebecca Henderson, John and Natty McArthur University Professor at Harvard University, and founding co-director of the Business and Environment Initiative at Harvard Business School.
- Sue Biniaz, who was the lead climate lawyer and a lead climate negotiator for the United States from 1989 until early 2017.
- Richard Schmalensee, the Howard W. Johnson Professor of Management, and Professor of Economics Emeritus at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
- Kelley Kizier, Associate Vice President for International Climate at the Environmental Defense Fund.
- David Hone, Chief Climate Change Adviser, Shell International.
- Vicky Bailey, 30 years of experience in corporate and government positions in the energy sector.
- David Victor, professor of international relations at the University of California, San Diego.
- Lisa Friedman, reporter on the climate desk at the The New York Times.
- Coral Davenport, who covers energy and environmental policy for The New York Times from Washington.
- Spencer Dale, BP Group Chief Economist.
- Richard Revesz, professor at the NYU School of Law.
- Daniel Esty, Hillhouse Professor of Environment and Law at Yale University.
- William Hogan, Raymond Plank Research Professor of Global Energy Policy at Harvard.
- Jody Freeman, Archibald Cox Professor of Law at Harvard Law School.
- John Graham, Dean Emeritus, Paul O’Neill School of Public and Environmental Affairs, Indiana University.
- Gernot Wagner, Clinical Associate Professor at New York University.
- John Holdren, Research Professor, Harvard Kennedy School.
- Larry Goulder, Shuzo Nishihara Professor of Environmental and Resource Economics, Stanford University.
- Suzi Kerr, Chief Economist, Environmental Defense Fund.
- Sheila Olmstead, Professor of Public Affairs, LBJ School of Public Affairs, University of Texas, Austin.
- Robert Pindyck, Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi Professor of Economics and Finance, MIT Sloan School of Management.
- Gilbert Metcalf, Professor of Economics, Tufts University.
- Navroz Dubash, Professor, Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi.
- Paul Joskow, Elizabeth and James Killian Professor of Economics emeritus, MIT.
- Maureen Cropper, Distinguished University Professor, University of Maryland.
- Orley Ashenfelter, the Joseph Douglas Green 1895 Professor of Economics, Princeton University.
- Jonathan Wiener, the William and Thomas Perkins Professor of Law, Duke Law School.
- Lori Bennear, the Juli Plant Grainger Associate Professor of Energy Economics and Policy, Nicholas School of the Environment, Duke University.
- Daniel Yergin, founder of Cambridge Energy Research Associates, and now Vice Chair of S&P Global.
- Jeffrey Holmstead, who leads the Environmental Strategies Group at Bracewell in Washington, DC.
- Daniel Jacob, Vasco McCoy Family Professor of Atmospheric Chemistry & Environmental Engineering at Harvard.
- Michael Greenstone, Milton Friedman Distinguished Service Professor of Economics, University of Chicago.
- Billy Pizer, Vice President for Research & Policy Engagement, Resources for the Future.
- Daniel Bodansky, Regents’ Professor, Sandra Day O’Connor College of Law, Arizona State University.
- Catherine Wolfram, Cora Jane Flood Professor of Business Administration, Haas School of Business, University of California, Berkeley, currently on leave at the Harvard Kennedy School.
- James Stock, Harold Hitchings Burbank Professor of Political Economy, Harvard University.
- Mary Nichols, long-time leader in California, U.S., and international climate change policy.
- Geoffrey Heal, Donald Waite III Professor of Social Enterprise, Columbia Business School.
- Kathleen Segerson, Board of Trustees Distinguished Professor of Economics, University of Connecticut.
- Meredith Fowlie, Professor of Agricultural and Resource Economics, U.C. Berkeley.
- Karen Palmer, Senior Fellow, Resources for the Future.
- Severin Borenstein, Professor of the Graduate School, Haas School of Business, University of California, Berkeley.
- Michael Toffel, Senator John Heinz Professor of Environmental Management and Professor of Business Administration, Harvard Business School.
- Emma Rothschild, Jeremy and Jane Knowles Professor of History, Harvard University.
- Nathaniel Keohane, President, C2ES.
- Amy Harder, Executive Editor, Cypher News.
- Richard Zeckhauser, Frank Ramsey Professor of Political Economy, Harvard Kennedy School.
- Kimberly (Kim) Clausing, School of Law, University of California at Los Angeles
- Hunt Allcott, Professor of Global Environmental Policy, Stanford Doerr School of Sustainability.
- Meghan O’Sullivan, Jeane Kirkpatrick Professor of the Practice of International Affairs at Harvard Kennedy School.
- Robert Lawrence, Albert Williams Professor of International Trade and Investment, Harvard Kennedy School.
- Charles Taylor, Assistant Professor of Public Policy, Harvard Kennedy School.
- Wolfram Schlenker, Ray Goldberg Professor of the Global Food System, Harvard Kennedy School.
- Karen Fisher-Vanden, Professor of Environmental & Resource Economics, Pennsylvania State University
- Max Bearak, climate and energy reporter, New York Times
- Vijay Vaitheeswaran, global energy and climate innovation editor, The Economist
- Joseph Aldy, Teresa & John Heinz Professor of the Practice of Environmental Policy, Harvard Kennedy School
- Nicholas Burns, Roy and Barbara Goodman Family Professor of the Practice of Diplomacy and International Relations, Harvard Kennedy School
- Elaine Buckberg, Senior Fellow, Salata Institute for Climate and Sustainability, Harvard University
- Anna Russo, Junior Fellow, Harvard University
- John Podesta, Advisor to Presidents Clinton, Obama, and Biden
- Catherine Wolfram, William Barton Rogers Professor of Energy Economics, MIT Sloan School of Management
- Jody Freeman, Archibald Cox Professor of Law at Harvard Law School.
“Environmental Insights” is hosted on SoundCloud, and is also available on iTunes, Pocket Casts, Spotify, and Stitcher.
